An edited transcript of the conversation follows.
Knowledge@Wharton: Explain the back story on how pride got this negativity attached to it. I think if you take pride in your work, it’s always a positive.
Jessica Tracy: Do you? I agree that it’s often a positive. I won’t say always because there is a darker side to pride. But I think what you’re suggesting is unusual in that a lot of people do see it as negative. It goes all the way back to ancient religious scholars. In the Bible, pride is deadly. Dante saw it as a deadly sin. There’s some truth to that in the sense that what we found is there are two diff erent kinds of pride: hubristic pride and authentic pride. Hubristic pride is problematic. That’s the pride that really is all about arrogance and egotism and more than just, “I worked really hard and I feel good about it.” It’s more, “I am the greatest. I’m better than others. I deserve more than others.”
Knowledge@Wharton: In the book, you bring up an interesting example of that with cyclist Lance Armstrong. If there’s anybody that ever fi t into that category, it’s Lance Armstrong. The seven-time Tour de France winner was stripped of his titles in 2012 after a doping scandal.
Tracy: He’s a really interesting example because he’s someone who probably didn’t always exemplify hubristic pride. If you think about his early life, he spent every day of his teenage and young adult years riding his bike as hard and fast as he could. That sense of drive for achievement and greatness, that’s authentic pride. That’s the desire to be the best that you possibly can, to sacrifi ce all kinds of fun things that he could be doing to put in this incredibly hard work, subject himself to pain.
One thing I argue in this book is
that pride is what motivates us to do all that, to go beyond pleasure and easiness and say, “No, there’s something that I want to be or some kind of person that I want to be that takes really hard work, and I’m going to do it.” That’s authentic pride. I think at some point Lance got
much more attached to the praise that he was getting from others, the sense that he was the greatest and how others saw him, than he was to actually being the greatest. He shifted his strategy and thought maybe there’s an easier way to get all this praise and be seen as the greatest without having to put in the hard work that would be necessary to prove it.
Knowledge@Wharton: What’s interesting about him is the fact that he’s a cancer survivor. When you have a life-altering moment like that, a lot of people would say you want to work hard to come back from that.
Tracy: My sense is when he was beating cancer that was the authentic pride. That was him saying, “I’ve got to do everything I can to kick this disease.” He did amazing things for the world and cancer survivors everywhere with his Livestrong Foundation. But then I was as surprised, as many people were, when it came out that he’d been cheating for a long time. But if you look at the behaviors that he engaged in while he was cheating, it’s very consistent with the kinds of behaviors that we see of people who demonstrate hubristic pride, which is to say it’s not just that they’re arrogant and think they’re better than everyone else, they also feel the need to sort of put others down. They bully others. They control them in a very intimidating and aggressive way. Based on stories that Lance’s teammates told about him and other people in his life, it sounds like that’s exactly what he was doing.
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