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researching, learning and arranging songs at speed? You were saying that your first album was somewhat spontaneous.
Well, it was the repertoire I already had. Some of the second album was like that, too. That’s why first and second albums are sometimes the best, because after that you’re going into stuff more recently learnt. I think there was only one song I learnt especially for that first album, and that was Broomfield Hill. Scarborough Fair was already in my repertoire. High Germany was. The Trees They Do Grow High was.
Ye Mariners All? That was. Sovay was more recently learned, as was Two Magi- cians. I was exploring – trying to find out stuff. I wasn’t going to be put off. It was important to me. I just wanted to find out how this music worked.
Swarb had one saying that was abso- lutely wonderful. It was when we’d just started working together again. I was starting to work on this long intro I had for Byker Hill. I was working on bits that could underpin what he was playing. He was the ace improviser and I was the per- son who wanted to give him some kind of platform. I wanted to play something that might spark something in him.
After a gig I’d work on things, while I was still hot to trot. I was in his house working on something, and he was stand- ing leaning against the wall. I said, “Is it OK to do this?” [meaning to alter traditional pieces in such a way]. He just said, “You can do anything to music. It doesn’t mind.”
Isn’t it a great thing to say? That’s how he felt about it.
The great thing about Swarb was that he never counted bars. If you said some- thing was in nine, he’d just play it. He’d just learn the tune. He’d rarely fall out of time. He could follow you wherever you went. If you suddenly stuck in a variation, Swarb was there on your coattails: “Gotcha, you bastard!” Swarb was quite remarkable.
Do you see anyone among the younger musicians now that has a similarity to Swarb?
Well, he doesn’t have a similarity to Swarb, but he has that same sense of adventure and fun: Sam Sweeney.
You did some gigs with him recently, did- n’t you?
We did two gigs. The guy from Seri- ous rang up. Whenever he rings up, you know it’s always going to be interesting. He said, “What I want is to have Sam Sweeney and Martin Carthy work out 90 minutes of music. They need to work on it, and then we’ll give them the day before and as long a soundcheck as they like to rehearse and finalise what they’re going to do. We’ll give them a rehearsal space, they can make themselves ready, then they’ll do the gig.” So we did.
Sam is remarkable. Very, very different to Swarb, but he has a remarkable atten- tion to detail and he passes it on to you. He certainly passed it on to me.
We did the first gig and it was wonder- ful. So Alan Bearman [booking agent] asked us how we’d feel about doing another one at Sidmouth. It was an opportunity to work
Martin Carthy & Dave Swarbrick, 1992
a bit more on the stuff we’d worked out. We played better and were more relaxed in each other’s musical company for the sec- ond one. We made several crucial adjust- ments so that things happened, and we both got really excited. It was huge, huge fun. We resolved that we’ll put it down on record at some point. And we will. I think he’s fabulous. There are other good ones, but Sam… well, Sam is special. The standard, generally, is massively high.
Do you think traditional music is having a peak time at the moment, in terms of quality?
It’s interesting. Technically, things are
hugely different and hugely improved. When that folk music degree started at Newcastle University, I was slightly worried by the fact that everybody wanted to play but not so many wanted to sing. There were a couple of great singers there like Emily Portman. I think she’s just fantastic. Jim Causley, too. He’s a natural. I rate him as a singer. He’s a real bass. He’s very plain, but that’s deceptive. He’s hugely musical. I think he’s bloody good. No trickery – he’s just relaxed, and his diction is great [laughs].
That’s what I’ll be taking from today: an attention to diction.
Seriously! It’s the most important thing. When you’re telling people a story, the words are all you’ve got. I’ve some- times said that it doesn’t matter about the tune. Of course, that’s nonsense because it’s really nice to sing a song to a nice tune. Sometimes you’ve got to do a little bit of work so that they sit right with the melody. There’s nothing wrong with that. When you start playing with words, that’s when you start to find your feet as a writ- er. You start to develop some understand- ing of pacing and timing. So, arranging it to your own taste, as far as words are con- cerned, is critical.
Presumably all of that informs the way in which you play guitar? It’s almost as if the melody takes precedent above chord structure.
Well, I don’t play chords. I try not to, but all sorts of voicings happen and they’re all deliberate. Those melodies are extraordinary. Chording doesn’t work for a lot of what I’d call modal tunings. What I’ve consciously done is to play to the singing rather than singing to the playing. Most people, when they pick up a guitar, will sing to the playing. For me, it’s the other way around. That’s why I do a lot of stuff where there’s just a notion of a pulse, rather than a strict rhythm. Of course, that doesn’t hold true all of the time.
I was going to say… there must’ve been a point where you developed that style, either consciously or otherwise, because it’s not apparent back on your first albums.
It’s not there on my first album. Not at all, no. For me, it was about keeping it very simple. I can do it in just about any song – weaving in and out and allowing the words to dictate what the pulse is.
One of the most extraordinary things I noticed watching you and Eliza last night was that, on the occasions when you might slip up on a line, you simply repeat it and she’s right in there with you as though nothing has happened. It’s barely notice- able, but it’s fascinating to see it occur.
That’s something that we learned, Eliza especially, from playing with Norma. Norma would frequently add a bar, or half a bar. We’d just allow it to happen and then let it settle down again.
Why would Norma do that? Was it just an impulse? In the moment?
Yeah, sometimes just in the moment. Norma rarely makes mistakes – and I mean really rarely. That said, one of the things that used to happen with The Watersons all the time, on those unaccompanied songs, was that we’d spontaneously leave out a verse. All of us! We’d get to the end and just look at each other [laughs].
“Where did it go?!” Yeah! “Did we sing so-and-so?” “No.”
“Oh, shit.”
Photo: Dave Peabody
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