SP: So, in the process, what modus operandi should they use for looking at the issue of success and what it means to them and what they want it to mean to them? DR. EPSTEIN: This is the kind of thing people have thought about since the dawn of history. The issue to consider is the societal definition of success, which is mainly money, prestige, and power. When you are in a position to evaluate how that affects you, I think it is also awfully important to be aware that there are two minds: an experien- tial (or emotional) mind and a rational mind. What may be pleasing to one mind may not work at all for the other. Knowing this, you start to respect both minds and to see how they are reacting. For example, I may tell myself that it really would be great if I became a very famous psychologist. Rationally, that makes sense – why not? Maybe that is what I want to work on being. But it could also be, if I looked into my emotions (which are going to be the barometer), the information on how my experiential mind is assessing the situation, that I am not really happy with becoming famous. Whatever little fame I achieve doesn’t make me feel better about my life. In fact, maybe it makes me feel a little more depressed. So, here I am saying, “Aren’t things fantastic! I have done everything society said I should and life is wonderful.” But if I look into my emotions, they may or may not confirm that.
Notice, I’m not saying what is right
or wrong, but what is. I am not even saying that you can trust your emo- tions – but that it is useful to know them. Your emotions come out of your past experience, so you have been programmed emotionally as well as rationally. And they affect a lot of your behavior – whether you like it or not. Because, if I decide that hav- ing fortune and wealth is where I want to go, and, emotionally, that is not where my other mind wants to go, it is going to be very hard for me to get to where I think I want to go rationally.
And, when I get there, I am not going to be happy about it.
SP: So, in other words, you will be fulfilling your desire, but you will be putting roadblocks in your own path. DR. EPSTEIN: That is part of it. The other part is that you are fulfilling the rational desire, what you think you want; but, at a deeper or experiential level, it is not what you really want. So, one answer to your question is what one should be motivated to do with one’s life is to at least know yourself. Then you can take into account your desires at different levels. There is no easy answer; I can’t give you any rule of thumb on how to do this. But I can observe what my moods and emo- tions are and say to myself, “Is this what I really enjoy?” or, “Is this what I think I ought to enjoy?”
SP: So it is having a given experience and then asking yourself, in a very honest way, “Did I really enjoy that?” DR. EPSTEIN: Yes, exactly.
SP: And also asking, “Do I really feel good about myself now?” or, “Do I re- ally have a lot of money in my hand?” but still feel kind of empty. DR. EPSTEIN: I am not saying that the emotional level is necessarily right, but it is different. Having found that I now have the choice, do I want to go along with the intellectual deci- sion I have made to seek fame and fortune? If so, I had better start repro- gramming my emotions. But I may decide I don’t want to do that – that I should go along with my emotions. You still have the choice. All that look- ing into yourself will do for you is not allow you to kid yourself.
SP: What personality traits would be more likely to create an environment where success could happen? DR. EPSTEIN: I don’t see any formula that would work for all people. I think that there is the process of trying things and observing what happens and being aware that one has this emotional, intuitive, experiential self
‘‘
Leaders live by choice, not by
accident. MARK GORMAN
that you have to treat with respect if you want to lead a satisfactory life. But I’m not denying the importance of the rational self. I am emphasizing the other because most people in our society tend to deemphasize emo- tion and intuition. They kind of think of it as a weak part of the self. If you ignore those things, they don’t stop existing. We are human beings: we have emotions, like it or not.
SP: You are saying, “Listen to your own feelings, your own emotions, and relate them to what you are doing.” DR. EPSTEIN: That can be tremen- dously valuable to people. I know I have seen it. With that information, people can solve things in much more fulfilling ways than if they tried to ignore that and work under the illu- sion that they are completely rational people. I like to point out that there is nothing more irrational than to argue that one is a very rational person. It is about as reasonable as saying that the sun is shining when it is raining. We are biologically made as emo- tional creatures. Somebody may say, “I don’t believe in any of this intuitive emotional stuff; it is nonsense. The reason that women don’t get as far into hardheaded science is that they are too emotional and intuitive.” That is silly. That person is irrational because he wants to deny a reality that is part of him. To be rational, one has to accept intuition and emotions simply because they are there – and a lot of us don’t. A lot of us don’t listen to our feelings. Our feelings are always giving us signals of how we are dealing with life on an automatic level. Moods are simply prolonged feelings. So, whether you like it or not,
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