CONVERSATION
and they’re still not tired! I’m not scared that they will be tired. … But what I’m saying is that when I went [back] to Kabul, it was mostly new faces, new women leaders, new voic- es. There are women asking for women’s rights in force. But they are very aware that it has
to be the Afghan way. And [the young people] tell you, “The Taliban, when they say Sharia—OK, come on, let’s do it!” They challenge, in their own way, the Taliban’s framework. One woman told me that, “OK, if every- thing is according to Sharia, then from tomorrow, no woman will be denied inheritance.” And one young woman told me,
“This is an order from God. Read it. Let Taliban bring a compulsory edu- cation for all women, because this is the way Sharia is.” Oh my God, these are new talks and new leaders. I was amazed.
MONTAGNE: Do you see that as more long-lasting? Because every- thing is on shaky ground when it appears that it’s a borrowed world- view, or borrowed culture. GAILANI : [The new women lead-
“Because the Taliban
ers], they never, ever underestimated or [were] ungrateful for the support from Western women. Because [the support] doesn’t come from governments, it’s from women making their governments talk about it. But they want to challenge the Taliban in their own way. I mean, regarding
education, they say that if we have the same professor teaching us, [then] if the classes are separated, that’s fine. But we will not compromise on the quality of the education.
MONTAGNE: Do you think the Taliban, maybe some of the younger Taliban, could be co-opted? KOOFI : They have opened the universities just to tick boxes to the world that universities are open. But from what I hear, girls—not all of them, most of them—their families don’t let them go. And they have a justification. If she graduates with a degree but doesn’t have an opportunity to work, there is no need for her to [have gone]. And those who go to university are very, very confined in the classes. They don’t have enough female professors and the male professors are not allowed to enter their classes. So when it comes to delivery and to quality, it’s horrible actually. But I also know that Taliban … boys are also human beings. When I was in
Kabul under house arrest, once I went to a hospital to see somebody who died, to pay my tribute. The Taliban security—their guys were at the gate—saw me in the car, and I was not wearing a burqa, just wearing a scarf. [A young Talib], he was looking at me and he was not sure what to do or say. And you know, his inner instincts were telling him to say hi and to be nice, but his job will tell him to be aggressive and to look at me the way a usual Taliban look[s]. Finally, he couldn’t control his emotion and he was, like, smiling and laughing because he probably saw me on TV, and now he’s seeing me in person, in front of him! And you know what? The guy who was Taliban … he said he wanted me to help him with his education. He wanted a scholarship. So, yes, if people have freedom and if there [is] freedom of media, I think some of them will be melted into this societal change.
know that if they allow women to access the idea of freedom, that will put in danger the Taliban’s ideology. And what I’m saying is that education, enlighten- ment, progress—all of these principles—are in contradiction with Taliban’s ideology. Because they’re using religion as a weapon.
—FAWZIA KOOFI
www.msmagazine.com
MONTAGNE: One thing that’s poignant from our conversation last spring is when you spoke with your daughters, they said to you they never believed the Taliban could take over or that it could go back to the way it was 20 years ago. What about now? KOOFI : It is a total reversal. But on the other hand, we all know there is resistance, that women are resisting Taliban. And that is something that my daughters and every Afghan girl and woman is very about. … In fact, my younger daughter established a group where she added all these woman activists from Afghanistan and she asked them to share their stories and their pictures, videos. And she said, “The only thing I could do is raise their voice, send it to international friends, to amplify their voice.” So they’re in touch and they’re also very much hoping to go back. More in a
hurry than me to go back! But the thing is, to go back and do what? They don’t remember the first round of Taliban. So when Taliban took over,
one day they went out just to see how things look, if it’s normal. They went to a closed coffee shop—where they were [used to] going with their friends—and they saw there a big group of Taliban, with their traditional coats and guns and weapons. And they said, “No, Mom. This country is not our country any- more.” And the next day they left Afghanistan, because … with only men with beards, turbans and guns, the country’s not going to move forward.
n ”
RENEE MONTAGNE is a Peabody Award-winning journalist, finalist for a Pulitzer Prize in 2018 and host for NPR News who has covered Afghanistan extensively.
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