about their clients and what their clients do. Healthcare, surveying, computers, the list is endless. We are going to need to be facile with the terminology and the practic- es in those non-legal areas of expertise to be effective litigators and advisors. I think allowing people to be associated with and communicate with lawyers in those partic- ular areas, and being involved in our CLEs and list serves, will be very helpful while adding to our membership.
BP: Let me change the subject a little bit.
We know that economically these times are tough for a lot of people, big firms, small firms. We’ve seen firms close, merge; we have seen people move their operations into their house, and as you said earlier, we’re talking a lot of lawyers. Let me ask you a bit about the pro bono activities of the Vermont bar—not the association, not the VBA—and let me ask how you, as a law- yer in a small town, feel about the pressure, the expectation, perhaps, to do pro bono? JC: I welcome it, but I acknowledge it is difficult. I think it’s appropriate that at- torneys are reminded on a continual ba- sis of their ethical and personal obligation to provide pro bono services. It’s part of our profession. It’s really part of our histo- ry. It’s also part of our professional respon- sibility, and I think that lawyers recognize it, understand it, and I don’t know that it’s perceived so much as pressure as contin- uously being reminded of the opportuni- ties that are available. I know, based on my own practice, that there are a lot of law- yers—in fact, almost every lawyer I know— who continuously provide pro bono ser- vices that never get recognized as such. I am not talking about partial payments or write downs on bills; I am talking about the number of telephone calls that come in to lawyers on a daily basis that they field, re- spond to and assist with, and help people moving forward. I am also talking about a number of cases that lawyers pick up that are really uncharted, that don’t get recog- nized formally in any kind of pro bono tab- ulation, because they get calls from judges or clerks, or people walk into their offices, and they are picking up files and handling cases on a pro bono basis. It happens ev- ery day, all day, with just about every law- yer I know. It certainly happens in our firm. I know it happens in all the firms around Addison County that I deal with. But, we are a very private profession and we are in a poor position to self-promote. It would be, in some ways, good to monitor or tab- ulate how much of that goes on because it might be helpful to our image as a profes- sion. But, frankly, self-promotion by point- ing out how saintly we are is self-defeating. It is much better to just do the work. I know it happens, and I am grateful for that! The VBA and the VBF are incredible vehicles
8
for providing all kinds of ways for people to become involved on a pro bono basis and we need to keep those projects fund- ed and active because they are really help- ing people in need. The pilot projects that Teri and Mary Ashcroft have been central in getting off the ground are providing all kinds of opportunities for attorneys to pro- vide pro bono services or I guess it’s called “low bono” services, which seems to be an unfortunate term to me. I think it helps in two ways. I think it helps attorneys who are interested in continuing and having op- portunities to do pro bono service, and I think it also helps attorneys who are start- ing out in getting some files and cases, get- ting themselves in court and handling cas- es and files. And it has fulfilled a real need. I also think it has been very helpful that we now have an unbundling process that al- lows for attorneys to become involved on a more limited basis. But, lawyers in big and small practices, time and time again, pro- vide all kinds of pro bono services for peo- ple within their communities. I also know that they are involved in other ways in their communities. Busy people—lawyers are re- ally busy people. That said, we can and will do better.
BP: You are talking about the unfortu- nate label of low bono services. Let me ask you, not so much where that problem comes from, but, are we pricing ourselves out of the market? Are our rates and our fees a problem? JC: In a word, yes. Legal services, at least in terms of litigation—and I will focus for a moment on providing legal services that pertain to any kind of litigation—are enor- mously expensive. It would be difficult, frankly, for me to afford an attorney if I had a significant piece of litigation that I need- ed to hire a lawyer to handle. That would be a significant financial burden. Clearly, it is a significant financial burden not only for Vermonters that qualify for some form of pro bono services in a formal sense, but also Vermonters who earn moderate in- comes, who are just trying to make it on a day-to-day basis. Litigation in particular, I think—the cost of it, and the cost of doing the discovery required to be a zealous ad- vocate—is very difficult to afford for most of our clients. Alternative dispute resolu- tion is, in many cases, a helpful tool to re- duce cost. Certainly there is some thought and effort going into how perhaps to pro- vide a middle-tier discovery process or pro- cedural process, if you will, that might help to minimize or curtail some of those ex- penses, at the discovery phase. I do think it is true to a large extent and for a large segment of our clients that our costs and expenses are above what they can reason- ably sustain. But the solution to that, Bob, is something that we need to talk about
THE VERMONT BAR JOURNAL • FALL 2011
and deal with as a board.
BP: Right. A certain bankruptcy judge, who will have to remain nameless, suggest- ed that I ask you about something called “Night Fires.” JC: (Laughing) Well, that limits the po- tential field of judges.
BP: I actually only know one bankruptcy
judge. JC: Night Fires is really something that came to my family through my daughter. She has been in Night Fires over the last fifteen years or so, and last year was the first year that I ever participated on stage. It may happen again.
BP: You need to tell us what it is. JC: The only way to describe it is to see
it. It’s a really interesting performance, it’s a theatrical—I guess I would call it—perfor- mance that involves components of dance, singing, of storytelling that are compiled around a theme, and it takes place around the winter solstice. This year it will be per- formed in Middlebury. It used to go to the people by travelling around the state for performances at different locations, which was a pretty complicated process to get the whole stage and all those people moved around. The people in it are peo- ple from the community, local folks, and it is put together by a woman named Mari- anne Lust, an absolutely wonderful woman who lives in Lincoln and has been doing it for many, many years. She also does some- thing called Marrowbone, which is, again, a series of performances that takes place along a path in her woods in Lincoln, and it is an annual event. People walk this path through her woods and at various places are positioned for these performances to happen, and then they end up in a pine grove for a story. She is a pretty unique and truly wonderful woman. I really cannot believe that they would have asked me to do this, as I am really quite an amateur.
BP: But you are a musician? JC: I play guitar, let’s put it that way. A musician is going a little far.
BP: I really have two questions left. I want to, if you could, address the relation- ship between the VBA and the judiciary. You could talk about it with the trial bench, with the Supreme Court and it’s administra- tive role, but over the years I have seen that relationship, and I am speaking personally, change a little bit, and I would like to ask you where you think it’s headed. JC: Boy, I think, and again this is my own personal perception, at the moment it’s a really strong and a good relationship, one that I think was made even stronger as a re-
www.vtbar.org
Interview with VBA President Jim Carroll
Page 1 |
Page 2 |
Page 3 |
Page 4 |
Page 5 |
Page 6 |
Page 7 |
Page 8 |
Page 9 |
Page 10 |
Page 11 |
Page 12 |
Page 13 |
Page 14 |
Page 15 |
Page 16 |
Page 17 |
Page 18 |
Page 19 |
Page 20 |
Page 21 |
Page 22 |
Page 23 |
Page 24 |
Page 25 |
Page 26 |
Page 27 |
Page 28 |
Page 29 |
Page 30 |
Page 31 |
Page 32 |
Page 33 |
Page 34 |
Page 35 |
Page 36 |
Page 37 |
Page 38 |
Page 39 |
Page 40 |
Page 41 |
Page 42 |
Page 43 |
Page 44