Audio 2.7m


Amount of apps in the iPhone podcast app store


think ‘serious’ journalists will rise to the challenge though. The Economist has made some great and popular world affairs series. And the ITV Post Office scandal drama showed that novel, non-news formats can have a huge impact.” Lewis Goodall, formerly of BBC’s


Newsnight and now a presenter of Global’s News Agents, defends podcasting and goes further. Speaking at the Podcast Show about investigative journalism minutes before Rishi


Sunak made his rain-soaked general election announcement, he said: “2010 was the TV election with the TV debates, ’17 and ’19 were the Twitter


elections. I sort of feel that 2024 will be the podcast election. Not just because of us but because, in the last few years, there has been such a proliferation of political podcasting where people turn to get their political fix. With the decline of programmes like Newsnight and others, there is going to be such an appetite for this. Hopefully we can satisfy that demand.” In fairness, Goodall does get out and about, making old-fashioned, long-form audio packages. He says you cannot appreciate what’s going on unless you are on the ground. I agree. But he’s just one person and we need teams of reporters. Alice Sandelson is commercial strategy director at Tortoise Media, which tries to focus on long-form investigations. “We were approached to make those two-header series. We


decided that, in the main, we didn’t want to do that. But the move towards celebrity has definitely happened,” she says. Sandelson says sponsorship is vital for Tortoise Media but


acknowledges that sponsors often prefer to support long- term programmes rather than limited series. News can be harder to sponsor for two main reasons. One, the audience is generic and advertisers would prefer a more niche audience, and two, news is deemed unsafe because sponsors can never know what’s coming next. Despite the tough conditions – Tortoise Media made losses of £4.6 million before tax in 2022 – Sandelson is positive about the future. “What might surprise some people is that our seven-


successful, but the number of times I think ‘you’ve just listened to the Today programme’. The content they’re adding is superb. But what we have do is to add value.” Is journalism getting pushed out by shows where famous


people, ex politicians and journalists just talk to each other? I should declare an interest here. I’ve moved from freelance Radio 4 reporting and


producing, after 16 years to working for two big-name podcast companies, Gary Lineker’s Goalhanger and Amazon’s Wondery, writing dramatic scenes for a history podcast, with two presenters, talking to each other. And I also have to admit my listening habits have changed. I don’t automatically put on Today. I even had a phase of getting my political fix solely from Rory Stewart and Alastair Campbell before I realised that was a bit… narrow. It’s not just me. Ryan Dilley, an ex-colleague from Radio 4


News programmes The World at One and PM, as well as Broadcasting House, says he’s also lost the habit of turning on a radio station and listening to whatever was on. “That used to expose me to some great stuff… but also a lot of dross. I worry about the future of ‘serious reporting’ - because it is a lot to expect a large number of people to tune into reporting on an obscure conflict or a slightly dry public policy debate. I


The Podcast Show: panellists discussed whether the decline of news programmes would make people turn to podcasts for a political fix


“


minute daily Sensemaker podcast – we take one story every day – is our most commercially successful,” she says. “We have other significant revenue streams – getting a podcast series optioned for TV or film, for example. We have a first-look deal with Sky Studios which means they get first dibs on our stories. Investigative journalism is expensive but these things come in waves and we believe there will always be room for clever journalism.” Back at the Podcast Show, Nick Robinson and Amol Rajan,


There was an explosion of content and many weren’t told how difficult it is to grow and be profitable


who present Today and the Today Podcast, share the stage with Justin Webb and Marianna Spring from Americast, as well as Adam Fleming (from all the casts). They debate over the amount of content on offer, with Robinson jokingly suggesting that peak podcast is right here in front of us on the stage. Rajan disagrees: “I think the idea of peak podcasting, which I


see written about in these unbelievably tedious columns, is such utter bullshit. That’s like saying we are at peak YouTube or peak Instagram. It’s absurd. When a new podcast comes along, if it’s good, I think, great, I’ll listen to it. If it’s not good, I just listen to something else. It’s not a problem. You see this written about by intellectually docile writers who are used to a world where if you listen to one radio station it means you’re not listening to something else. Podcasting is not a zero-sum game.”


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