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At one point it seemed they were des- your duty to go forth and find a different al singers had, but most traditional singers
tined to be hooked by jazz. Norma’s first version of it. Doing a straight copy wasn’t I like had varied repertoires and a lot of it
husband was a jazz drummer and Lal an option. “That’s one of the differences was music hall stuff.”
showed an early talent for jazz. “Lal sang now,” says Norma. “There are some really
great jazz,” says Mike, “at one point she good young singers around but they’re
was asked to join a jazz band.” Lal’s cele- lazy… they just copy.”
brated song Some Old Salty – performed
Like a million other groups who sud-
by the family at Cambridge – makes clear
denly surfaced in the skiffle era, they ini-
L
loyd was a source of endless
encouragement and inspiration to
them, programming the ‘calendar
of ritual and magical songs’ that
perhaps also made Frost & Fire
references to her youthful predilections
tially lent heavily on American music as one of the first concept records. “Bert was a
for the jazz she used to dance to on the
they started performing under the names lovely man,” says Norma. “He never pushed
riverboat cruises out of Hull and the Jelly
the Mariners and the Folksons. They had a us to do anything we didn’t want to do, he
Roll Morton, Jerry Lee Lewis and Brenda
banjo player then – Pete Ogley, who later just encouraged us and provided us with
Lee songs that would blare out of the
went on to become a member of the some great songs. He’d send us postcards
local funfair.
group Cockersdale – a huge Pete Seeger from his travels. When he was in America
I ask them what it was, then, that drew fan who brought in most of the American collecting from what was left of the Carter
them instead to English traditional song. songs. When Ogley got married and left family, he wrote and said ‘The traveller is
Mike mentions his love of poetry and read- the group, he took the entire American sat on the porch drinking moonshine
ing the Cecil Sharp song book at school and repertoire with him. Much to Mike Water- whiskey… ’ and then we’d get one from
Norma talks of something deep inside that son’s relief, apparently. “I couldn’t under-
Albania saying ‘The traveller is here drink-
connected her to the tradition. “There’s stand why we were singing all these for-
ing his tea with wild yak’s butter… ’ He had
something about traditional music that no eign songs. I met Pete later when he was
all these stories, I loved him to bits.”
other music has and you recognise it imme- singing with Cockersdale and he said ‘You Mike: “While we were making that
diately. It has a… pulse… that gets right were right and I was wrong about those record he said he had a few more songs
inside you, almost like your heartbeat and American songs’.” for us and he brought us Herod And The
you suddenly think, ‘that’s my music’.”
Finding themselves with a purely
Cock and took us out for a cup of tea and
Martin Carthy believes Yorkshire English repertoire and no banjo, the
said ‘Sing that one’. So we did and after-
blood has something to do with it. “York- three Waterson siblings and John Harri-
wards he said ’Hmmm… sing it again’. So
shire people are very steadfast in their son changed their name to the Water-
we did. Then he said ‘Sing it again’ and we
identity and I think they went out to look sons, decided to concentrate on unaccom-
said ‘What are we doing wrong?’ He said
for a Yorkshire way of doing songs. They panied English traditional songs and the
‘Oh nothing… it’s pure indulgence’.“
found the Kidson collection and latched rest is history. “Unfortunately,” adds Mike, “he got
on to names like Kate Thompson. Having
The big year for them was 1965 when
mixed up with MacColl, which wasn’t
found the Kidson collection they went a
they came to London to record their clas-
wrong because it got him out into the pub-
step further than most people and found
sic first album Frost & Fire in a single day
lic, but lots of people wouldn’t have any-
people doing it in a Yorkshire way and met
at Bill Leader’s flat in Camden at the
thing to do with him because of MacColl.”
people like the Beresfords, a whole family
behest of Bert Lloyd. Norma: “Bert said There follows an animated debate on
of travelling musicians.”
we had the process of traditional perfor- the pros and cons of Ewan MacColl. “Who
The unwritten rule at the time, says mance, we just didn’t have the repertoire. can you be talking about?” says a laughing
Martin, was that if you heard a song it was We didn’t have the long ballads tradition- Carthy with heavy irony as he returns with
July 2009 – standing: Ann, Eleanor, Mike, Marry, Oliver, Rachel, Erin and sitting, Martin, Norma, Eliza and Florence Daisy (photo: Judith Burrows)
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