“You can look up the word homosexuality in the Bible today and so people think it’s always been there. Yet, it has only been there a little more than 50 years.
While you were raised within the PTL Ministry and the Christian church, you had a unique opportu- nity to be connected with LGBT people early on didn’t you? Oh yeah! Most definitely, I’ve always said that the church was the first organization
to start “don’t ask, don’t tell.” Now that I look back, I realize that I was surrounded by gay people my whole life. I mean I didn’t actually know what it was, but in hindsight I’m like, “Ah-ha, now I know what that was.” Actually, in high school one of my best friends was gay. Even when I’ve gone to other churches to pastor, members of the staff have come up to me and whispered in my ear, “I’m glad you’re here.” It’s really a shame because I really feel that there is a “don’t ask, don’t tell policy” within the church, which is what creates the extreme prejudice and exclusion. You’ve also said the church uses what you refer to as “clobber verses.” What is a clobber verse? They are basically the seven or eight bible verses that people have latched onto,
to try and prove their argument against homosexuality. Soul Force (at
soulforce.org) has a great reference to those verses and the counter points, which something I wish I had early on because I was still researching them in Greek and Hebrew and searching through historic backgrounds to find what Soul Force puts at everyone’s fingertips— the answers to those “clobber verses” in the Bible. You obviously have different relationship with the Bible than mainstream Christian pastors. What are your thoughts on the “Holy Book?” The Bible is such a strange book. Even with just sexuality period, simple basic human
sexuality, it’s probably not the best place to get advice from. You have polygamy, and women are seen as property for land trade, things such as that made me realize that maybe I needed to start to read the Bible in a different way. How do you suggest it be read? Well, its context would be a good place to start. (Chuckling) It wasn’t one book writ-
ten 2,000 years ago— it wasn’t even a book at all, Jesus had never even seen a book. It was collection of scrolls that got passed around in the church and basically some folks in the Catholic church decided they were going to close the canon and deem what books we’d have and what books we wouldn’t have. There were a lot of them left out and we basically just have what is in the New Testament. So realizing that the Bible should be read in such context is eye opening. People also need to realize that some of the books attributed to Paul weren’t actually written by him. So there are definitely contradictions in the Bible. So do you see yourself as the editor who has to correct such conflicts? I’m the messenger who says that it is okay to live with conflict, it’s okay to live with
two different stories, and it is okay to realize the Bible is not perfect. Because seeing the conflict in context keeps the Bible from being God, that keeps it from being the final word. It allows for Christ—it allows for hope and it allows for love to be the final word. It was made up of different books when different cultures existed just like we have different cultures today. So, I think that we can read the Bible in that context and measure every verse against the question, “Are you loving your neighbors as you’d love yourself or treating others the way you’d like to be treated?” When Christians supported slavery, it was ultimately that verse that helped to end the practice. “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” That’s what Jesus said was the ultimate law. As a pastor, what role do you see the Bible playing in your ministry? It’s not an answer book, it’s a book of questions and of trying to figure things out and solve them. It’s more of a math book that teaches us some lessons but you have to basically work the problems out for yourself. Unfortunately we have a big problem on our hands, because it is viewed by most as the answer book on homosexuality. That’s because someone (somewhere between 1948 to 1958) arbitrarily decided to add the word “homosexual” into the Bible replacing such words as “male prostitute” or the likes. So do you think it’s forever changed? Oh yeah! You can look up the word homosexuality in the Bible today and so people
think it’s always been there. Yet, it has only been there a little more than 50 years. People don’t understand that English is a limited language and the Bible wasn’t written in English. It has changed for me, not in a negative way either. If anything, it’s given me a greater faith, it allowed me to love beyond the Bible—experience God outside the limitations of two pieces of leather. You realize that these people who you once may
have looked upon as sinners, are actually seeking God. And they were people just like you and me trying to find him. With that said, you have obviously had a special relationship with grace in your life? Elaborate on your relationship, and what you truly believe grace is. I always felt that there was something wrong with me and that I would never live up
”
to the church’s expectations or God’s expectations. So eventually, I just stopped doing any type of that stuff. I had a friend with whom I was discussing it and I told him, “I’m a horrible person, I’m miserable, God hates me.” He told me, “And you’re full of sh*t too!” I said, “What?!” He told me that I was trying to earn my salvation, invalidating grace and using Jesus’ death in vain. He told me, “Jesus took care of this. You’ve been forgiven and really, it’s not about you, and you have to accept that!” I thought he was really full of it, until I started to read the Bible for myself when I was about 20. I read and saw all these scriptures about love, forgiveness and the fact that everybody is accepted. The Bible was full of all these beautiful things that I had never seen before— It blew my mind. Why is that? Weren’t those same words always there? Indeed they were, but that’s not what we were taught in church. Most of the time, I
was never really encouraged to read my Bible. So when I started reading it for myself, I thought it was really good news, but also knew that people had to hear more about this. All I wanted to do was tell people they are loved and accepted no matter what. So that’s what I’ve spent the past 14 years doing—letting people know that they are accepted—period. I always say that even the unacceptable parts are accepted, and I always say by a power greater than them. So many people are not at a point where they can even think about Jesus because they’ve been so hurt in his name. I want people to accept that there are no ifs ands or buts. You don’t have to be more spiritual or less spiri- tual, you’re accepted where you are. I’ve found great freedom in that concept of grace. God’s grace and love is as much for “the others” as it is for you and me, and I believe that is beautiful—it’s so beautiful that it’s scary. What message do you have for right wing Christian leaders? I really don’t know what else to say to them except, “Hey we need to talk and have a
conversation and take another look at this. You need to sit down with some LGBT folks and truly listen without an agenda.”
The conversation with Jay Bakker doesn’t end here! Go to
ragemonthly.com and read the rest of the interview, in which Bakker reveals who “the others” are to him; his opinion of Jerry Falwell; what it was like to call Tammy Faye “mom;” finding Jesus in a drag bar in Los Angeles and much more from the Outlaw Preacher! Additionally, Bakker is the special guest speaker at Christ Chapel MCC’s 40th Anniversary Celebration on Saturday, April 9. For more information about Christ Chapel MCC’s 40th Anniversary Celebration, visit
christchapelmcc.org.
APRIL 2011 | RAGE monthly 31
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